Don't Get Curbstoned! - The Podcast

"SteveLehto" (stevelehto) 04/30/2015 at 09:00 • Filed to: None

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As regular readers of Jezebel know, a piece I wrote the other day focused on Curbstoning. The piece wasn’t on Jezebel, but the notice that it was trending was. (See above.)

In case you missed it, here it is.

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The reaction I got to this was kind of interesting. And by that I mean: One guy called me a “douche” and told me to go “F*ck” myself, although he did not use the “*” symbol when he pecked out his curseword. Several people accused me of shilling for the car dealers. Which was neat, considering how many car dealers accused me of trashing them.

And then the car flippers came out en masse and said that what they do - selling cars without the benefit of dealer licenses - is not only righteous but is something I should quit pointing out to people.

Hey, I never called anyone any names. I just suggested consumers should be made aware of the true nature of the Curbstone transaction. If you want to flip cars without a license, sell cars off your lot (when you are a dealer), or skip titles - knock yourself out. Just don’t blame me for the pesky laws that are opposed to what you do. I don’t write the laws; I write about them.

So in that vein, I give you Lehto’s Law #29. In Roman numerals I think that might be rendered as XXIX but that doesn’t look right to me. Either way, give it a listen. I go over the nuances of Curbstoning and also give the example I should have given in my piece but didn’t - the most egregious title skip that ever happened. Ever.

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BJ > SteveLehto 04/30/2015 at 09:26

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There was something I didn’t quite catch on this topic (maybe you covered it in the podcast): while some of the activities might be illegal for the seller, do they affect the buyer in any way? Does it invalidate the sale or otherwise put the buyer at risk?

SteveLehto > BJ 04/30/2015 at 09:32

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Yes. The buyer pays more than they would have otherwise if it is an off-lot sale. If it is merely a car-flipper there is probably no ramification. And if it involves a title-skip then there can be all kinds of problems.

That last one bothered a lot of people because title-skipping is becoming more common among car flippers. But it all depends on if the title skip works. What happens when the seller (B) hands you a title that was signed by (A) and A is still on the title? You (C) go to the DMV to get a new title and the DMV doesn’t like the look of the signature. They ask you to get a better one.

You contact B (if you can) and they cannot help since they may not know who A is/was or where they are today. They might be dead (see my podcast). And so on.

Buying a car with a skipped title is fraught with peril. A lot of people here told me they have no problem with that. Great. Wait until the hit a snag like this, or it turns out the car was stolen (After all, you are buying the car from someone who is admittedly not on the title. And you trust them why? Oh right. You met them on Craigslist: The world’s finest source for trust worthy people).

And, if you bought a stolen car from someone who handed you a title in someone else’s name? Good luck getting any sympathy on that since the police will point out that you knowingly paid B for a car titled to A, someone you never met.

themanwithsauce - has as many vehicles as job titles > BJ 04/30/2015 at 09:35

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I believe there are title transfer issues that could result in additional fees, plus if the car has a bad title or was misrepresented, these are the types of people who go “poof” and you’re left on the hook. Most dealerships have insurance and a license to protect both parties in these transactions. Of course, shady dealers try to avoid this.......And in a private-party transaction, you can take the other person to court if something really bad happens. Curbstoning is like a “used car lot” where you get a “title”, they string you along for a while, then they up and leave one day and you can’t register your car correctly and they were never a dealer in the first place.

crowmolly > SteveLehto 04/30/2015 at 09:44

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Steve,

Looks like you are taking the criticism in stride.

Title skipping is bad news. Somebody is trying to sell a car they do not own. I had to deal with it on three muscle cars. I was “such a prick” for being firm about a clean title trail every time but I didn’t (and still don’t) give a shit. You have to take all the steps to protect yourself. Sure, some of the time (or maybe even most of the time) the state may not care, but other times you run into big problems.

SteveLehto > crowmolly 04/30/2015 at 09:55

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Yeah, I heard from a ton of people on that. I think they are the ones doing it and it pisses them off that someone is pointing out how dangerous it can be. All it takes is for the person at the DMV to say, “Hmmm. I don’t like this signature. Get me a new one.” Or, “This car was reported stolen.”

What then? “But wait. The guy I met on Craigslist said he spoke to this person. Don’t you believe me in believing them that they were telling the truth?”

BJ > SteveLehto 04/30/2015 at 09:59

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The title-skip issue could be problematic since, as you mention, it opens the door for the sale of a stolen vehicle.

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This made me think of something: Here in Quebec we have what’s called a vente d’accomodation or a “convenience sale” that allows a private seller to sell through a dealer to a private buyer, a sort of legal title-skip. Example: Alice is selling her Toyota Camry and wants to buy a new BMW 4 Series, but the dealer is not interested in taking the Camry into their used car inventory. Bob agrees to buy the Camry and meets Alice at the dealership, where the title is transferred to the dealer - the dealer becomes the legal owner, from whom Bob is now buying the car. Bob hands his money order to the dealer, who will then apply the amount against the purchase price of the new car. When Bob goes to the SAAQ (our DMV) the title is legally transferred to his name, without the need for Alice or the dealer to be present.

Alice gets the advantage in this case, because she can sell a car and not have to take the bus to the dealership, while Bob has to pay the GST (Federal goods and services tax) which normally is not required when buying privately.

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Back on the topic of curbstoning without a title-skip, we can presume that in the case of a licensed dealer selling off-lot, or of a flipper selling one too many cars without a license, the only risk to the buyer is that they pay too much? And even then, it’s only our presumption because the control is in the hands of the buyer - if the price is too high, it’s up to the buyer to negotiate or refuse.

crowmolly > SteveLehto 04/30/2015 at 10:02

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I think it’s the “Well it can’t happen to me” psychology. I forget the exact term, but basically there was a study done a few years back about people’s perceptions of bad things always happening to “somebody else”. I won’t have a problem because I’m me .

Not to mention how DMVs are cracking down on title and selling price fraud as I’m sure you are well aware. That’s all fun and games until you get a letter from the state department of the treasury.

SteveLehto > BJ 04/30/2015 at 10:04

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Yes. But I always think it is good for the consumers to simply KNOW what is going on.

BJ > SteveLehto 04/30/2015 at 10:06

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Absolutely.